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People have been giving war a chance since the dawn of civilization. Yes. War encourages innovation. But you know what also encourages innovation? Money. If there is a use for some invention, people will pay for it. And when there's money to be made, gold ol' human greed kicks in. There's also probably a lot more quotes from important dead people against war than for it. For example...

Give me the money that has been spent in war and I will clothe every man,
woman, and child in an attire of which kings and queens will be proud. I
will build a schoolhouse in every valley over the whole earth. I will
crown every hillside with a place of worship consecrated to peace.
~Charles Sumner

And I know the name of the game is "Destroy the Godmodder" and I'm not advocating making "Love the Godmodder" a thing. But I still feel there should be more options for non violent methods. I'm actually considering making Willow's backstory sidequest thingy mo bob be possible to beat without dealing any damage to anyone.

Twin:

Point.

But.

The monotony of Damage Sponges can get annoying eventually.

And by eventually, I mean, when the Trials started. It was pretty much meatshield, meatshield, meatshield. A puzzle or two would have been nice. I mean, like a real puzzle. The Ancestral Artifact things, actually, are kind of what I'm thinking of, but it's been pretty long since. I don't even remember what all of them were. But seriously. Make us think, instead of push the same buttons with different weapons.

Honestly, even if combat alone is a thing, combat can be varied more than the current bipoles of MEATWALL and small-numbers-absurdly-high-dodge.

@mythology; For that matter, the Egyptian gods are pretty much a variation on the theme, in a lot of ways. Which is not to say that having one fairly-similar pantheon with minor variations to fit cultural differences is actually a bad thing, it certainly makes not having wars of the "Only True God{s}" easier.

Low HP high dodge type enemies are rarely loved, so the Meatshield enemies are more of a necessary weasel there. Also, the Mistake is actually outright immune to anything that isn't given the power of Order. So there's that.

In any case, Amp, would you care to make recommendations, because those enemy types are very broad.

I know of a couple other enemy types... one that alters its balance of attack vs. defense based on the phase of the moon... one that spawns adds and their strength is based on how many adds are alive... one that grows stronger the more actions are taken against it... one that delays certain attacks against it for a few turns... one that does absurd damage but boosts your charges... one that makes other entities use their special attacks twice instead of once... one that summons tons of stuff if its left alive at low health... one that changes what its weak to based on what hit it earlier (sound familiar?)... one that retaliates a fixed amount of damage at the end of the turn to anyone who hit it... one that plants debuffs and then times when they all activate... Any of those sound cool and non meatshieldy? Of course, it would be a waste if no body actually realizes and exploits the loopholes I left for them in the entity design. Because if that happens, why not just attach a name to a lifebar and be done with it?

edit- Thought of a really good one. The Enchanted Deck as an enemy. It starts with only one card, the Queen of Hearts. If it is drawn, the Deck goes around lopping people's heads off and doing absurdly high damage to everyone. Then it reshuffles the deck. So, to prevent it from drawing the Queen of Hearts, you can add your own cards into the mix. They still have to be good for the Deck though.

Those all sound pretty awesome. Although you may need to drop hints.

So DTG3 is basically Hostility: The Entire Game?

Quote from Talist»

I know of a couple other enemy types... one that alters its balance of attack vs. defense based on the phase of the moon... one that spawns adds and their strength is based on how many adds are alive... one that grows stronger the more actions are taken against it... one that delays certain attacks against it for a few turns... one that does absurd damage but boosts your charges... one that makes other entities use their special attacks twice instead of once... one that summons tons of stuff if its left alive at low health... one that changes what its weak to based on what hit it earlier (sound familiar?)... one that retaliates a fixed amount of damage at the end of the turn to anyone who hit it... one that plants debuffs and then times when they all activate... Any of those sound cool and non meatshieldy? Of course, it would be a waste if no body actually realizes and exploits the loopholes I left for them in the entity design. Because if that happens, why not just attach a name to a lifebar and be done with it?

OK, that's an excellent point. I'll try to keep everything different and interesting on this much at least in GMing DTG0. Then again, I do recall Epona II and her supply drops. Those are some interesting ideas. (Hope you don't mind much-I can certainly think of other things, but those are pretty cool).

It doesn't even have to be the bosses/summons that are different, a lot of player things could be easily changed. For example, I have noticed healing is a lot less useful, and it is near impossible to heal as well as you can be attacked. I played a game where one class only had support skills, he could only use normal attacks, but he had area of effect speed, healing, and damage buffs, which made him pretty powerful.

As for high dodge, it can be useful if done right, for example, fire emblem, which is known to be fairly tough, dodge can both save you when you make a mistake (I have been saved hours of replaying a level by a lucky dodge), but it can also completely destroy you, and make you extremely ticked off when an enemy (especially a boss) dodges your attack, and then destroys your character.

I guess I'm saying that these can be good, if they are equally distributed amongst both sides of the gameplay, and it pretty much balances itself out. Off topic though, I won't be able to really post for a little over a week, which is probably the worst time for this game, but there's going to be a bunch of stuff I have to read when I can post again

Quote from ProofofconcepT»

It doesn't even have to be the bosses/summons that are different, a lot of player things could be easily changed. For example, I have noticed healing is a lot less useful, and it is near impossible to heal as well as you can be attacked. I played a game where one class only had support skills, he could only use normal attacks, but he had area of effect speed, healing, and damage buffs, which made him pretty powerful.

As for high dodge, it can be useful if done right, for example, fire emblem, which is known to be fairly tough, dodge can both save you when you make a mistake (I have been saved hours of replaying a level by a lucky dodge), but it can also completely destroy you, and make you extremely ticked off when an enemy (especially a boss) dodges your attack, and then destroys your character.

I guess I'm saying that these can be good, if they are equally distributed amongst both sides of the gameplay, and it pretty much balances itself out. Off topic though, I won't be able to really post for a little over a week, which is probably the worst time for this game, but there's going to be a bunch of stuff I have to read when I can post again

The problem is, people have gotten historically infuriated whenever bosses with high dodge chance show up, as they're usually meatwalls anyways, but in a FAR more infuriating manner. When Piono (not to be confused with Pionoplayer) came down for his battles, it was safe to say that the one thing he managed was to tick off all involved, as he was nigh-unkillable with various evasive maneuvers that made 90% of attacks useless. That is usually how it plays out in a more broad sense. In Fire Emblem, it's OK, but here it's a glorified and VERY annoying defense, making the entity in question basically unable to get hit and extending it's lifespan beyond what it should be. Then, there's things like Murphy's law.

I want to strangle Granger for summoning that thing. I want to strangle him, so hard. In short: Murphy's law made 50% of all attacks fail. No matter what. Even as a newbie that was utterly infuriating. But the gist of it is, arbitrary attack failure is bad.

As for healing: All Entities are doomed to die, so the only action that grants EXP is damage. Healers get no EXP. Buffing nets you nothing. Only damage. That's intentional, though, as damage is the keystone of the game, and if an entity were to keep alive for too long, it would be annoying for the other side as they could not kill this thing that keeps being there. I'm not saying healers are weak and buffers/debuffers are BAD, but they don't get EXP because that's not the point, and damage comes easier.

Actually, high dodge/damage avoidance is pretty much how all combat in dwarf fortress works. If anything gets a good hit on just about anything, it might have major effects, so most of combat is getting past your opponent's ability to parry, dodge, block, and have useful armor. And then you get off a sweet punch to the head that blows lethal skull-bits through their brain, because strange physics and torso-wounds being oddly weak.

I did have the thought that pulling some champion characters from succession games could be interesting for a summon at some point. Sankis, Tehsid and Holisticdetective might make admirable enemies even for Descendants.

Quote from Amperz4nd»

Actually, high dodge/damage avoidance is pretty much how all combat in dwarf fortress works. If anything gets a good hit on just about anything, it might have major effects, so most of combat is getting past your opponent's ability to parry, dodge, block, and have useful armor. And then you get off a sweet punch to the head that blows lethal skull-bits through their brain, because strange physics and torso-wounds being oddly weak.

I did have the thought that pulling some champion characters from succession games could be interesting for a summon at some point. Sankis, Tehsid and Holisticdetective might make admirable enemies even for Descendants.

Or Legends Mode characters. Tholtig Cryptbrain, anyone?

On the subject of DTG3 bosses, how about a boss squad somewhat like the Winds of Destruction? Some gimmicky annoying minion summoner for the first of the trio, followed by someone hard to defend against with a specific attack vulnerability interval, and then the last one could have a shield with a weak point that can be broken off part-by-part followed by a Turns Red phase that heralds increased damage output and the summoning of some minions.

Okay, may I say something?

I'm not good at coming up with puzzles.

It takes me a while to solve puzzles, but I can solve pretty difficult ones (sometimes easy ones are difficult for me because I'll miss something obvious, but other than that) but I can't solve them fast.

And so rather than trying to do flat-out puzzles, I try to add a layer of strategy in.

As some people may have noticed in the tvtropes session, I didn't try hard enough, and let health bars and damage count get away from me entirely too early on. So I've switched to less of a stat-based system.

That's the reason why dodging bosses make people mad, because a lot of people don't read the boss's flavor text all the way through, because most of the evading bosses have specific things that could hit them.

Piono, for example, was meant to be weak against combined attacks, but also against the occasional blast he didn't have any specific shieldings for, and I had to just let that be where he took all his damage from when everybody completely refused to work together.

On the other hand, in the tvtropes session, these kinds of non-stat based bosses do much better, because a lot of the time, high-evasion bosses are coupled with not having health bars, and people having to judge damage based on descriptions.

The Glitch event and the mob army have probably been my two most popular events, but the end of school as played havoc with my attendance, so the mage circle could be a good one too. I haven't received any complaints about that, and people like being able to think around things, such as laitome deciding he didn't want to face the colossus in the room he was heading for, and carving a hole in the wall instead.

Even though he ran into a giant monster there too, instead of just pounding it to death, they got the shadow hydra's head stuck in the door frame and sliced it up, and killed it that way.

I don't think everything needs to be puzzle-based, but making it less of a random.randint(___,___) for damage per attack definitely helps things along.

Wait, so what do people want? Do you want puzzles or do you not want them? I figure the best way to learn that is to just ask everyone. I've got more ideas then those as well. I can probably get through... Maybe 10 or 15 bosses before having to either recycle ideas or come up with new ones.

one that has a minion that attacks you yet you have to keep it alive...

one that cycles its minions in and out of battle...

one that kills of its own minions to trigger effects...

Quote from Talist»

Wait, so what do people want? Do you want puzzles or do you not want them?

I think puzzles would be cool, but don't make them take over the game.

Racking my memory for boss battles, I can remember a few good ones from the Sonny game series.

Time Bomb: A large meatshield of a boss that didn't attack, but that you automatically lost after 40 turns. Basically a beatdown festival.

Doctor Klima: Healed himself for a large amount every 5th turn. The key to defeating him was to cast Subversion to turn that healing into damage, chunking him for a 5th of his health bar each time.

North and South Guardian: A duo that, upon the death of one of them, the one still alive would Turn Red. I think the key to defeating them was to kill them both on the same turn.

Somethingarather the Deceiver: A fairly strong boss accompanied by an Orb of Life and an Orb of Death. Turns Red if either of the orbs dies, and has an EXTREMELY strong Turned Red form. The key to defeating her was to keep the damn orbs alive.

And of course, if you've ever played the game, you'll probably remember

BARON.

GODDAMN.

BRIXIUS.

The utter clod with upwards of 80000 health on the easiest difficulty who, during phase one, cast a spell that would take away 10% of your health each turn, cut your healing down by 90%, and lasted 10 turns, but who also took very high mana burn damage if he ran out of focus. I forget what he does for the other two phases, apart from a possible Scooby Doo shoutout near the end of the battle.

...enemy concepts / things for DTG 3?

I can work with this.

I. Phase

"Phase" type enemies have average HP, and changes from 1-8 forms in order when struck. A few of these phases can be deadly, given the circumstances. (ex: Phase 1 deals massive AoE damage, Phase 2 casts a powerful self-heal). Players will need to team up to decide the proper numbers of times to hit it, and attempt to get people to not screw up. Upon being hit in Phase 8, it loops around. Other version can't loop, and instead has a stupid strong attack for Phase 8.

II. Replicant

"Replicant" type enemies have lower than normal HP, and targets things through various methods, and copies them. Replicants then can use the attack of that entity, and deals damage to that entity if the Replicant is struck. It takes damage upon hitting the entity the Replicant is copying. If players have HP bars, upon being hit, the Replicant could copy the last person to hit it, forcing teamwork to combo it.

III. Link

"Link" type enemies have lower than normal HP, and don't attack. Instead of attacking, these foes make it so that a few entities are connected; if one takes damage, the other linked enemies take damage, too. It adds a sort of "risk vs reward" thing to certain links. (ex: having one allied entity connected but one foe, too)

Suggestion: Don't do anything that requires too much teamwork.

Quote from pionoplayer»

Okay, may I say something?

I'm not good at coming up with puzzles.

It takes me a while to solve puzzles, but I can solve pretty difficult ones (sometimes easy ones are difficult for me because I'll miss something obvious, but other than that) but I can't solve them fast.

And so rather than trying to do flat-out puzzles, I try to add a layer of strategy in.

As some people may have noticed in the tvtropes session, I didn't try hard enough, and let health bars and damage count get away from me entirely too early on. So I've switched to less of a stat-based system.

That's the reason why dodging bosses make people mad, because a lot of people don't read the boss's flavor text all the way through, because most of the evading bosses have specific things that could hit them.

Piono, for example, was meant to be weak against combined attacks, but also against the occasional blast he didn't have any specific shieldings for, and I had to just let that be where he took all his damage from when everybody completely refused to work together.

On the other hand, in the tvtropes session, these kinds of non-stat based bosses do much better, because a lot of the time, high-evasion bosses are coupled with not having health bars, and people having to judge damage based on descriptions.

The Glitch event and the mob army have probably been my two most popular events, but the end of school as played havoc with my attendance, so the mage circle could be a good one too. I haven't received any complaints about that, and people like being able to think around things, such as laitome deciding he didn't want to face the colossus in the room he was heading for, and carving a hole in the wall instead.

Even though he ran into a giant monster there too, instead of just pounding it to death, they got the shadow hydra's head stuck in the door frame and sliced it up, and killed it that way.

I don't think everything needs to be puzzle-based, but making it less of a random.randint(___,___) for damage per attack definitely helps things along.

Excuse me while I rant about something.

[RANT]"Combined Attacks" was really freaking vague. Everyone just aims at the same guy anyways if it's threatening enough, and considering how ridiculous Piono's power-set was, it felt somewhat more pragmatic to just sling loads of attacks at you instead of one huge death attack. You'd probably have Piono dodge the death attack because it was singular, while tons of still-strong attacks launched every-which-way would overwhelm Piono quicker. I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, I felt like slinging tons of attacks at you specifically was what we were supposed to do. If it was meant to be a 5-man hyper death laser instead of five guys slinging tons of attacks at you separately but still unified in cause, then you really screwed up. If, on the other hand, I got it RIGHT, it was just awful because really, the same feeling that you were basically deciding when stuff was going to happen was even worse. The Vord was already taking too long. I think the fact that the "With Friends Like These" Trope was under the trope list should have meant that you really should have to think twice about what constituted Teamwork.[/RANT]

OK, with that out of the way...

Twin has explicitly said that the game should shrink down a bit and return to the core gameplay for DTG0/DTG3. DTG2 had a lot of RP, and some of that was regrettable. DTG is not a roleplay, it is a game. I mean, we're not removing the RP element ENTIRELY, and I think the concept of hidden boss weaknesses and strengths is rather novel, as long as it's not practically mandatory to killing it without severe consequences or the weakness isn't obvious enough. I found it very funny that the glitched Regnum Dei was immediately put under Fseftr's control when he sat on it, but it was destroyed that turn, proving we didn't need to exploit that. Do you understand what I mean?

Also, thanks for all those crazy ideas. I'll probably have a linked page to this part of the thread so I can come back here for advice in case I need help in making a boss or some interesting entity.