Just a simple, quick forum for discussing DTG: Chaos. There probably won't be any s e c r e t s in here.

CURRENT DISCUSSION TOPIC: How all will burn.

Originally posted on 2016-02-02 19:02:00

QUOTE (Irecreeper @ (time=1454439751))

There probably won't be any s e c r e t s in here.

Which is just another way of saying that there WILL be secrets in here, only they happen to be ones you don't want us to find.

Originally posted on 2016-02-03 09:16:00

Welp, too bad. I've got my dirty mitts in everything I can find, so if you're hiding secrets somewhere we can find them, I probably will.

Originally posted on 2016-02-04 03:22:00

insert_generic_username: hey does going prone count as movement for "don't move" effects
Irecreeper: prone doesn't count
insert_generic_username: oh okay
insert_generic_username: good to know
insert_generic_username: i like how you put a contingency for beam-spamming but i just made a healing special
Irecreeper: kek
insert_generic_username: i didn't even know that there was a contingency
Irecreeper: but hey, against big foes, I don't want people insta-churging specials
insert_generic_username: mh
insert_generic_username: "if i'm rooted then am i immune to being moved"
Irecreeper: "yes"
Irecreeper: abuse it...?
insert_generic_username: hah, like i'd be able to root myself
insert_generic_username: plus then there could still be fire damage+push combo
insert_generic_username: if enemy teamwork is a thing
insert_generic_username: so for bill's cane, would providence be applied before or after the -1 mana for having a magic weapon
Irecreeper: ...hm
Irecreeper: that's a good question
Irecreeper: let's just say that all spells act like they have -1 MP Cost
Irecreeper: so casting a normally 5 mana spell
Irecreeper: would be 4 MP
Irecreeper: then x1.5 because providence
Irecreeper: for 6
insert_generic_username: you made it 4/3rds last i checked
insert_generic_username: but yeah i get you
Irecreeper: yeah.

Originally posted on 2016-02-06 06:31:00

I'm bored. Let's play a quick game of DTG!
CrappyGodmodder321: HP 1/0 (Overheal, loses 1 HP per turn
-EOTB-
CrappyGodmodder321 loses 1 HP due to overheal!
Godmodder killed!
Players win!

Originally posted on 2016-02-18 23:05:00

QUOTE (teag2 @ (time=1455836740))

I'm bored. Let's play a quick game of DTG! CrappyGodmodder321: HP 1/0 (Overheal, loses 1 HP per turn -EOTB- CrappyGodmodder321 loses 1 HP due to overheal! Godmodder killed! Players win!

((still a better host then powie))

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 00:55:00

Blurg. I said I was leaving, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna comment on the balancing. Here's my stance.
Any spell over 6 MP (after all deductions/multipliers) is no longer worth using, save for Summon, when one is running a mage build(unless MMP is high enough to still have anything left over).
Well, riskier to use, let's say.
The way a mage build tends to work(for me) is that the mage just spams spells until they reach rock bottom, at which point mana potions are used and the cycle repeats. With mana regen, the build shifts to "Use mana in the most efficient manner possible." This would probably mean mostly using low-cost spells, such as Fireball/Heal. Once you go over 3 effective mana regen(since mana regen is now capped at 3) you begin to start cutting into your mana reserves.
...According to current balance, assuming ???'s Bow would double regen and that regen would cross over into MMP, I would have... ~10 mana regen total, which means +14 MMP. (Regen Robes' effect is weird with that, so let's ignore the consequences of movement for now.) This totals up to around 34 MP total, which is decent, right? ...Eh. That's like. 6 Beams/6 Revives. Decent enough, but not quite good enough to trade off spamming Fireball/Heal(which would likely end up being the majority of spell usage.)
Surprisingly, most buffs are within the 5 MP range, which is great if you have Efficiency. However, running a support(buffs) build is really annoying, since most players would be out of range if you're trying to set up buffs on them. (Maybe make something that improves buff range, maybe not, whatever.)
Personally, I also think that the Mana Regen Nerf/Providence Nerf should have been one or the other, but that's just me.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 01:45:00

The problem here seems to be that we're all extremely good at what we do because of minmaxing out the arse, and the imbalance comes from the fact that our mages are extremely good at more things than average. Using myself as an example, assuming optimum conditions and my current build, and not factoring in resistances, I could hit a Zetta-size object for close to 200 damage in a single turn without a crit (for reference a cabin impacting someone's face deals about 150 damage), and yet I die in like 2 hits from basic enemies. The only reason I'm not a problem yet is that I'm never going to be in the situation where I can do that huge value due to so many things needing to go just right for me, including a full Assassin's Judgement, a Zetta-size object for me to target, and no me suddenly dying to a table leg. High risk, highly situational, high reward.

Then the mages do things like make about eleventy zillion super strong minions and fire Wide Beams out of their sweat glands while regenerating right back to full health the moment they are even so much as touched and teleporting around the map like a speed hacker having a seizure, and suddenly what people like me are capable of doesn't look so impressive anymore. Because the mages are low risk, high reward, all the time.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 08:15:00

Okay, how SHOULD we balance around mages? I tried asking Tazz; he had no idea. Odds are, this patch won't happen unless we find SOMETHING most people are happy with.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 15:38:00

Ah yes, so powerful. The person who, for their own best interests, would be best served lying prone the entire fight, can't heal(outside of Revive, which let's face it really really shouldn't self-target) and now, can use Tems4(Which also totally needed a nerf let's be real here) and enemies typically have enough range to murder the clones before they get to do anything anyways. But yeah, once that hurdle is cleared things get ridiculous.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 15:50:00

I think the mana regen cap is mostly okay actually, I like having generic here, and to be honest, I don't think changing up the regen issue would mess with your strategy too much. Spamming fireball is okay, most of the rest of us have attack power only slightly less than that, and it puts our mage at the mercy of enemy resistances and immunities to a certain extent. At the same time, Providence still needs to have the increased mana cost (I'm not certain whether 150% or 200% cost is better tbh), as there's enough variety that if generic can just spam other spells, he completely bypasses any disadvantages he would have normally.
I also recommend that providence doesn't give the spell's extra bonuses, so when you're casting a spell with providence you're casting the baseline spell, rather than the Int boosted version, which, come to think of it, removes the need for the increased mana cost.

I still say we need to keep the mana regen cap, or at least have it in some fashion. Meditate is there for a reason, and if our mage has a a high enough mana regen that they don't ever have to stop casting those high-level spells, then that's a serious problem to game balance.

EDIT: On a side note, I saw the argument about the alchemiter, and I honestly have to agree with tazz on that one, we're already able to do absurd things to our items without the alchemiter (using the sleuth's house as ammo anyone?) and the alchemiter has actually been the root cause of over half of the recent rebalancing issues, I think we're better off with it gone, even if it was kinda fun.
I still wish I coulda seen what the end product of those three last crazy alchemies could've been, but whatever.

@ire: "Not like" as in, "well, crap". It's going to be annoying, but hopefully the debuffs won't be too much. It looks like it's pushing the game in a direction of making the fights be a little more tactically interesting rather than just "bum rush the biggest threat then curb-stomp everything else" or "curbstomp everything else while running circles around the biggest threat". At the same time, looking at some of other people's responses... meh, I'm going to put a folder down at the bottom of my post and give a respec by respec analysis, since I've got time to spare. *sigh*
@numbersoup/ire: Okay, I think the level cap works best, having a level cap would be nifty.

@generic: Please don't bail. Ire is having a headache because he's GMing the game, all of us GMs know the feeling, and although ire probably puts in more than his fair share of effort (@iregmisbestgm) it isn't specifically because of you. In fact, we probably owe you thanks for putting together a build such that the rebalances had to be addressed before they got so out of hand that they became an even bigger headache.
Please stick around dude, you're one of our major players, and I think most (although admittedly apparently not all. ARGH! ALLITERATION AGAIN!!)of us would miss your input.

@ireagain: It's fine not updating. We're going through a gameplay overhaul, and you've got tests. The only reason I've got time right now is I can't go to school because of some mental thingamajig.

EDITlevel2: aka, responses to tazz's most recent post down:
???'s bow was the real breaker, yes, but as stated above, the game balance had some issues that were either going to cause this now, or be even worse later down the line. This is something that should've been addressed earlier, but the warning bells didn't get set off in anyone's heads until tazz flipped out at generic's broken-as-DTGtvtropes'-power-creep build. It was a blessing in disguise.
As for the spell revamp... I think we need to have two options. We need to have weaker spells available that do less, so we can have spell-casters who CAN sling fireballs an the like constantly, like what generic is trying to spec to (say, a sorcerer pseudo-class) as opposed to the bigger, scarier spells that SHOULD be amped up as tazz suggests (the counter, wizard pseudo-class)
This will probably mean that we might need a couple more 'basic spells' or 'advanced' spells added in the balancing update to accommodate this, although if that sounds like too much work to figure out, we could set it in the nifty little "to-do" list I've proposed below.
Stats also need to be fixed, HP is in urgent need of rebalancing, the breadth and spread that it reaches is just way too low. 20 is too high a minimum, and our max-health character is Darkside, at 38 health. That's not even twice the max, he's capable of tanking, I won't deny that, but I think the scale in either direction needs to be fiddled with.

Generic, I like your idea for temsfour, it makes the temclones unsquishy enough that although an actual attack can pick them off, they can't be wiped by somebody throwing pieces of cheese or something (I'd push for 1/5 of your max hp, and no AC) and makes it so they can still cast spells, but not to the extent that breaks the game.
I like all the others too, don't really have too much to say in regards to that though, aside from the Strength thing, which DEFINITELY needs the boost. Right now strength is the worst of the stats (bar maybe SPC, depending on how well specced you are for using your special) so that HP boost is a step in the right direction.



Todo list:
Okay, first off, spells. The spells need to be redone, but that's a huge thing, potentially worth an entire game revamp update all to itself in scope. The spells need a bit of rebalancing right now, but the total overhaul isn't urgent.
Second of all: stats. I feel that the stats are a little off still (HP-MP imbalance, all that sort of stuff) also not quite as urgent, but this one should hopefully be smaller and if not handled now, could be wrapped into another update.
Thirdly: Bosses. This isn't a rebalancing thing so much as we need to try and brainstorm ideas to give ire a starting point for figuring out how to make boss fights work better, because right now, they don't.
I had another one in mind, but I forgot what it was I was going to say.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 19:22:00

Idea I just had: STR also affects ranged weapons. It should really be renamed to ATK or something. Similarly, INT, although intuitive, might be better with a name like MAG.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 20:12:00

Did someone say STR buffs?

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 20:41:00

QUOTE (engie @ (time=1455869713))

Then the mages do things like make about eleventy zillion super strong minions and fire Wide Beams out of their sweat glands while regenerating right back to full health the moment they are even so much as touched and teleporting around the map like a speed hacker having a seizure, and suddenly what people like me are capable of doesn't look so impressive anymore. Because the mages are low risk, high reward, all the time.

Mages = Godmodders confirm

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 22:23:00

Pff, nah. Maybe the Godmoder.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 22:33:00

Well, officially according to tazz, ALL of the Descendants are godmodder, or, were last time an argument about godmodders came up that I was involved in, so, technically you're both right.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 22:43:00

Okay, as for which moves will be kept / not kept with regards to foe balancing:

Glitch Zombies won't be getting Shove. THERE'S OTHER MORE FUN WAYS TO INFLICT PRONE.
Annoying Memories are keeping all of their new buffs. THEY NEED TO BE ANNOYING.
The Freddy Memory won't be getting the Silence effect. Stun and Silence is overkill.
Corrupt will be nerfed to one status effect; it's still random though. #hearthstone
Lance's Siphon will be losing the splash, but have a 100% chance to stun. #nothearthstone
Cattrap won't be a thing. Nolegs will probably get something else; maybe a support move? He DOES do that, if I recall correctly.

As for new moves:

Natalie will learn "Snipe Redstone". She knows you've been the whole cause behind the... thing.
The Glitch Endos will be learning a skill; Endo Laser, a weak ranged attack. Also a slight buff to Wilson, now that I think about it. #fnafworldref
This section was made mainly to poke fun at Redstone. #westillloveyou #justnotinthatway #ishipchaosandredstone

As for HP, we'll probably drop the base *dubstep joke* to 15, then make HP Skillpoints grant 1.5 or 2 or something like that.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 22:54:00

Okay, I'm going to need to drop some more points into HP then, I can handle being at 20, but being two-shotable is a bit too much for me to handle.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 23:09:00

Big whoop. Now I die even faster than I did before. Oh well, not like I'm going to be doing things like charging into a battle with Zetta solo, right?

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 23:15:00

Yes they can, I just need to take it to an unreasonable level. Something which my STR being higher than my MANA should demonstrate I can do nicely.

Originally posted on 2016-02-19 23:52:00