In DTG there's no such thing as true omnipotence, the "truly omnipotent" are hard to write, and very, very few writers actually write truly omnipotent characters into their stories. Seriously. It's hard to do.
But in DTG, those who do are omnipotent to one of two extents, either within their universe, at which point they are considered a regular reality warper and either god-level in power, or sometimes universe-eater level in power, or in rare cases, they truly are completely omnipotent, like The Author or The OP King.
I sort of came up with a power level for them, the circle of High Reality Warpers, that basically keep to themselves and keep the other High Reality Warpers in line, and that'd be why the High Reality Warper types haven't wrecked reality yet (I mean, on top of the Narrative and Conflict preventing them from doing so), but since it hasn't really been established in canon yet I suppose that has to wait on verdict from tazz.
You can't write in a truly omnipotent character unless you give them 0 goals and 0 aspirations, at which point they're just a figure with the word "powerful" slapped on them
Yeah, that's true. Btu at the same time, you can't have multiple universes. It means "all of everything" Word drift. In DTG there is no true omnipotence or omniscience. It makes games like this difficult. But there are a lot of people who don't understand quite what omnipotence or omniscience entails or don't care, and when one of us utilizes a work made by an author like that, it necessitates us putting qualifiers on the usage of "omni-" words, however correct it may be.
You can have multiple universes. They just have to be separated by 4D space.
You can't write in a truly omnipotent character unless you give them 0 goals and 0 aspirations, at which point they're just a figure with the word "powerful" slapped on them Wrong, but if you do, one of those goals has to be to let other people make decisions on their own. Of course, you can always put in the fiat that they're omnipotent but not omniscient and CHOOSE to not be omniscient for one reason or another as well.
An omnipotent could just remove their flaws. This is true.
You can have multiple universes. They just have to be separated by 4D space. This is incorrect if you're operating by the basis of the word, which is what the discussion was over. Universe means all of everything, but due to string theory and crossover mechanics fan theories the word "universe" has come to mean a lot less.
If ROB is truly omnipotent then it can and cannot nullify its powers at the same time. Logic does not apply to true omnipotents. We've had this discussion already, there's no true omnipotents in DTG
I think my basic answer to the rock thing was "yes, but it's irreversable." Discounting time travel, I suppose. But that really just turns the rock from an actualized possibility into a conceptual possibility. A lot of omni- words tend to get weird when you follow them to their logical conclusion. Given example: Omnipresence. If you were truly everywhere, that means that you're also everything. Every particle, every ...energy? Like, if e=mc2, then you have to argue that omnipresence includes energy. And then you realize that omnipresence also has to include temporal omnipresence, which is an even more annoying thing to work out. This is one of the things that ended up really bugging me during my time spent... in the church? Is there a specific phrasing for going to church despite not being particularly religious?
Wrong, but if you do, one of those goals has to be to let other people make decisions on their own. Of course, you can always put in the fiat that they're omnipotent but not omniscient and CHOOSE to not be omniscient for one reason or another as well.[/b]
I considered this, I see no reason why a rational!Omnipotent would do this.
This is incorrect if you're operating by the basis of the word, which is what the discussion was over. Universe means all of everything, but due to string theory and crossover mechanics fan theories the word "universe" has come to mean a lot less.[/b]
This is basically the same debate about whether or not using "literally" to refer to something that isn't literal is grammatically correct before the dictionary recognized it. So many people use multiverse (including scientists) that it's safe to use in this context.
We've had this discussion already, there's no true omnipotents in DTG[/b]
So yeah, xcano, what's with you being a Physics nerd in Acolyte?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just took the Minecraft Noob test! Check out what I scored. Think you can beat me?!
To take the test, check out http://minecraftnoobtest.com/test.php
So yeah, xcano, what's with you being a Physics nerd in Acolyte?
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?u=251374
What's the point in having a series if I can't properly quantify it for OBD standards?
Just as an FYI the Aradia calc is bunk I just haven't gotten around to deleting it. There are still plenty of FTL Homestuck feats to choose from though.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?u=251374
What's the point in having a series if I can't properly quantify it for OBD standards?
Just as an FYI the Aradia calc is bunk I just haven't gotten around to deleting it. There are still plenty of FTL Homestuck feats to choose from though.
I just took the Minecraft Noob test! Check out what I scored. Think you can beat me?!
To take the test, check out http://minecraftnoobtest.com/test.php
I considered this, I see no reason why a rational!Omnipotent would do this.
It's been pondered upon before: simple answer; it's hard to have fun when you know everything that's going to happen.
This is incorrect if you're operating by the basis of the word, which is what the discussion was over. Universe means all of everything, but due to string theory and crossover mechanics fan theories the word "universe" has come to mean a lot less.
This is basically the same debate about whether or not using "literally" to refer to something that isn't literal is grammatically correct before the dictionary recognized it. So many people use multiverse (including scientists) that it's safe to use in this context.
I hope you realize you've been arguin with someone who agrees with you, right? I suppose I should've made that more clear in the above sentence, but yes, that's the point I made in my argument. So we agree on that point.
We've had this discussion already, there's no true omnipotents in DTG
Then it isn't ROB, it's RNOB.
He's been lying to us THIS WHOLE TIME!
Also, insert, would you be willing to whip up another Minecraft skin for the series?
It's the last one needed before the first episode can be made, so if you can, it would be greatly appreciated, I just need the bartender:
Generic European, dark hair, nondescript face, drabbish clothes, not really a lot to talk about him. Yes, that is intentionally the description I came up with him.
Okay, I suppose I was asking for that one. although the skintone does indeed work for the bartender if whitewashed slightly.
The clothes are the problem. Steve's clothes are very modern, what I had in mind for those were, well, medieval European bartender. Brown, drab, maybe with an apron in the front.
Except what's the point of that, really? If you define all that happens to you in your existence, there is literally no point to your existence, as you are literally completely self defining, nothing can give you definition because your decisions shape everything utterly and absolutely.
If there is no limit on your ability in terms of either knowledge or power, life becomes rather pointless.
Of course, that's when you wind up with beings who decide to just not interfere at all beyond preventing other beings from doing certain things, coming up with certain arbitrary rules that they enforce within the cosmos and the like, but willing yourself to be happy with no ill effects is sort of cheating, and although, yes, you COULD do it, it sort of defeats the point of having a purpose.
Make your happiness directly proportional to the happiness of everyone within a billion lightyears or so, and will yourself to be content with that forever. Now you have a purpose and are eternally happy, if you do not have a purpose despite this it does not matter as you are too happy to care.
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Um... if I can toss my two cents into this whole thing... (And I can because this is the Forge and we talk about whatever, no null required...)
I'll take the evolutionary approach. We humans have emotions because they're a useful survival technique to encourage learning. We learn to do the things that make us happy (like eat) because said actions encourage either our own survival or the survival of our group. We feel sad over our own losses because it encourages us to play it safe and not make the same mistakes. And we feel sad over other people's losses because empathy encourages a strong social bond.
So, why would an all powerful being have emotions? They're at no risk of dying to outside forces because they are, by definition, all powerful. So if this being just pinged into existence at the universe's beginning, then it would have no need for emotions because emotions would be literally useless.
(Note: If this all powerful being was a 'lesser' creature at some point, then became all powerful, ignore this post because none of it would apply. The creature would still have the (now irrational) urge to do things that make it happy and can choose to play with the rest of reality to fulfill that urge if it wants to. And maybe it would choose to not override its emotions because it likes its emotions because it has emotions. ... That's a confusing sentence. There's also an exception to my argument if the all powerful being just, by mere chance, happened to have emotions or some similarly irrational way of decision making when it pinged into existence.)
So the all powerful being would have no concept of emotion. And, I don't believe it would want to give itself emotion either because 1) it would be perfectly content with how it is now and see no reason to change and 2) who says emotion is even a good thing? We say it's a good thing because we have emotions, which makes us unreliable critics. That's like buying a product because it has a 5 star rating, but only 1 review.
Anyway, this leads me to think that a world with an all powerful, emotionless being would not last long. None of the being's actions would bring it joy or sadness, so it has no reason to prefer any action over any other action. And because it is all powerful, doing anything is just as taxing on it as doing nothing is, i.e., both take no effort whatsoever. It has no reason to prefer any action or lack of action in particular, which I believe means it would take every possible action all at once. And of course, this leads to a paradox.
If it's taking every action possible, one of its actions is to destroy the universe. It doesn't have any emotion or will to survive, so why not? It should be able to destroy everything in the universe, including itself, because it's all powerful. But at the same time, it's all powerful and cannot be destroyed. So... paradox. And by the laws of nature as we know them, paradoxes shouldn't happen.
The thing about rationality is that you need to have some goal rooted in irrationality. If you're being completely and totally rational and ignoring all emotion, it's hard to justify anything. If you go down deep enough, emotion justifies basically everything. I can't actually think of an action that is justified without emotion, no matter how primitive that form of emotion is. Even fear of death is... kinda irrational when you think about it.
... Maybe I'm overgeneralizing the word 'emotion'...
But is that the idea of them simply being emotionless is founded on logic. For to be omnipotent is not the same as to be flawless, would a being of infinite power be truly rational? And besides that's assuming they would have similar thought patterns to us and not be something completely incomprehensible like Azathoth or Giygas, who has an obscene amount of power but can't think rationally or in an understandable way.
... *Sigh* all these different things I'm trying to work on, and now I've got to work on homework again too, hopefully some of them will come to fruition.
You can't write in a truly omnipotent character unless you give them 0 goals and 0 aspirations, at which point they're just a figure with the word "powerful" slapped on them
An omnipotent could just remove their flaws.
You can have multiple universes. They just have to be separated by 4D space.
If ROB is truly omnipotent then it can and cannot nullify its powers at the same time. Logic does not apply to true omnipotents.
He scream
Wrong on three out of four counts there xcano.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
Trying to use Omnipotence to it's full potential sounds like a very good way to roll a 1 on the Paradox Dice.
GODDAMN IT
STUPID GENDERFLIP VIRUS
I think my basic answer to the rock thing was "yes, but it's irreversable." Discounting time travel, I suppose. But that really just turns the rock from an actualized possibility into a conceptual possibility. A lot of omni- words tend to get weird when you follow them to their logical conclusion. Given example: Omnipresence. If you were truly everywhere, that means that you're also everything. Every particle, every ...energy? Like, if e=mc2, then you have to argue that omnipresence includes energy. And then you realize that omnipresence also has to include temporal omnipresence, which is an even more annoying thing to work out. This is one of the things that ended up really bugging me during my time spent... in the church? Is there a specific phrasing for going to church despite not being particularly religious?
Cat drawn by me. Accepting requests, depending on a lot of things. DTG Atsume: http://www.imgur.com/a/tij95
1'-[7']-{'3}-'3-'3 '6-11'-7'-6'-7' '1-{'3}-8'-12'-'3-2'
'10-'5-'8-'11 1'-[7']-8'-7'-'3 '2-11'-2'-'9-7'
'10-'5-'3-'3 1'-[7']-'3 '10-8'-{'3}-['10]-4'-7'
'10-{'3}-'3-'3-'6-8'-4' {'3}-11'-2'-'9-7'
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I considered this, I see no reason why a rational!Omnipotent would do this.
This is basically the same debate about whether or not using "literally" to refer to something that isn't literal is grammatically correct before the dictionary recognized it. So many people use multiverse (including scientists) that it's safe to use in this context.
Then it isn't ROB, it's RNOB.
He scream
So yeah, xcano, what's with you being a Physics nerd in Acolyte?
I just took the Minecraft Noob test! Check out what I scored. Think you can beat me?!
To take the test, check out
http://minecraftnoobtest.com/test.php
War, war never changes.
The Beginning.
http://technoterra.myminicity.com
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?u=251374
What's the point in having a series if I can't properly quantify it for OBD standards?
Just as an FYI the Aradia calc is bunk I just haven't gotten around to deleting it. There are still plenty of FTL Homestuck feats to choose from though.
He scream
Uh...wuh...wuh?
I understand zero things you're saying.
I just took the Minecraft Noob test! Check out what I scored. Think you can beat me?!
To take the test, check out
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War, war never changes.
The Beginning.
http://technoterra.myminicity.com
I considered this, I see no reason why a rational!Omnipotent would do this.
It's been pondered upon before: simple answer; it's hard to have fun when you know everything that's going to happen.
This is basically the same debate about whether or not using "literally" to refer to something that isn't literal is grammatically correct before the dictionary recognized it. So many people use multiverse (including scientists) that it's safe to use in this context.
I hope you realize you've been arguin with someone who agrees with you, right? I suppose I should've made that more clear in the above sentence, but yes, that's the point I made in my argument. So we agree on that point.
Then it isn't ROB, it's RNOB.
He's been lying to us THIS WHOLE TIME!
Also, insert, would you be willing to whip up another Minecraft skin for the series?
It's the last one needed before the first episode can be made, so if you can, it would be greatly appreciated, I just need the bartender:
Generic European, dark hair, nondescript face, drabbish clothes, not really a lot to talk about him. Yes, that is intentionally the description I came up with him.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
...I mean, at that rate I might as well just toss you a whitewashed Steve skin. Maybe desaturate his clothes.
Cat drawn by me. Accepting requests, depending on a lot of things. DTG Atsume: http://www.imgur.com/a/tij95
1'-[7']-{'3}-'3-'3 '6-11'-7'-6'-7' '1-{'3}-8'-12'-'3-2'
'10-'5-'8-'11 1'-[7']-8'-7'-'3 '2-11'-2'-'9-7'
'10-'5-'3-'3 1'-[7']-'3 '10-8'-{'3}-['10]-4'-7'
'10-{'3}-'3-'3-'6-8'-4' {'3}-11'-2'-'9-7'
Spam restoration: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/forums/forum-discussion-info/2195940-posts-threads-deleted-because-of-spam-filter-place
Official DTG Cards Against Humanity suggestion pad: http://piratepad.net/DTGCAH
You, Math Lord. You are now our new mascot until Powie comes back. Feel honored.
Feel it.
Should I even-
No, you shouldn't.
He ate the bread that he made from stone
He fell from the Temple, never broke a bone
Bowed down to the Emperor and watched as former King was overthrown
He sits alone on his throne.
Okay, I suppose I was asking for that one. although the skintone does indeed work for the bartender if whitewashed slightly.
The clothes are the problem. Steve's clothes are very modern, what I had in mind for those were, well, medieval European bartender. Brown, drab, maybe with an apron in the front.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
Just will yourself to always be happy with no ill effects
He scream
Except what's the point of that, really? If you define all that happens to you in your existence, there is literally no point to your existence, as you are literally completely self defining, nothing can give you definition because your decisions shape everything utterly and absolutely.
If there is no limit on your ability in terms of either knowledge or power, life becomes rather pointless.
Of course, that's when you wind up with beings who decide to just not interfere at all beyond preventing other beings from doing certain things, coming up with certain arbitrary rules that they enforce within the cosmos and the like, but willing yourself to be happy with no ill effects is sort of cheating, and although, yes, you COULD do it, it sort of defeats the point of having a purpose.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
Make your happiness directly proportional to the happiness of everyone within a billion lightyears or so, and will yourself to be content with that forever. Now you have a purpose and are eternally happy, if you do not have a purpose despite this it does not matter as you are too happy to care.
He scream
Um... if I can toss my two cents into this whole thing... (And I can because this is the Forge and we talk about whatever, no null required...)
I'll take the evolutionary approach. We humans have emotions because they're a useful survival technique to encourage learning. We learn to do the things that make us happy (like eat) because said actions encourage either our own survival or the survival of our group. We feel sad over our own losses because it encourages us to play it safe and not make the same mistakes. And we feel sad over other people's losses because empathy encourages a strong social bond.
So, why would an all powerful being have emotions? They're at no risk of dying to outside forces because they are, by definition, all powerful. So if this being just pinged into existence at the universe's beginning, then it would have no need for emotions because emotions would be literally useless.
So the all powerful being would have no concept of emotion. And, I don't believe it would want to give itself emotion either because 1) it would be perfectly content with how it is now and see no reason to change and 2) who says emotion is even a good thing? We say it's a good thing because we have emotions, which makes us unreliable critics. That's like buying a product because it has a 5 star rating, but only 1 review.
Anyway, this leads me to think that a world with an all powerful, emotionless being would not last long. None of the being's actions would bring it joy or sadness, so it has no reason to prefer any action over any other action. And because it is all powerful, doing anything is just as taxing on it as doing nothing is, i.e., both take no effort whatsoever. It has no reason to prefer any action or lack of action in particular, which I believe means it would take every possible action all at once. And of course, this leads to a paradox.
If it's taking every action possible, one of its actions is to destroy the universe. It doesn't have any emotion or will to survive, so why not? It should be able to destroy everything in the universe, including itself, because it's all powerful. But at the same time, it's all powerful and cannot be destroyed. So... paradox. And by the laws of nature as we know them, paradoxes shouldn't happen.
The thing about rationality is that you need to have some goal rooted in irrationality. If you're being completely and totally rational and ignoring all emotion, it's hard to justify anything. If you go down deep enough, emotion justifies basically everything. I can't actually think of an action that is justified without emotion, no matter how primitive that form of emotion is. Even fear of death is... kinda irrational when you think about it.
... Maybe I'm overgeneralizing the word 'emotion'...
There's a difference between a hero and a champion. A champion overcomes threats, but a hero overcomes fears.
My Best Map so farAll my maps, click here.
Then there's also a Youtube channel I'm somewhat involved in.
Wow. I didn't think anyone could actually win this argument.
Xcano, I think both of us just got owned.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
But is that the idea of them simply being emotionless is founded on logic. For to be omnipotent is not the same as to be flawless, would a being of infinite power be truly rational? And besides that's assuming they would have similar thought patterns to us and not be something completely incomprehensible like Azathoth or Giygas, who has an obscene amount of power but can't think rationally or in an understandable way.
He ate the bread that he made from stone
He fell from the Temple, never broke a bone
Bowed down to the Emperor and watched as former King was overthrown
He sits alone on his throne.
In other words, No Mercy is still going on.
... *Sigh* all these different things I'm trying to work on, and now I've got to work on homework again too, hopefully some of them will come to fruition.
DTG Co Labs
Nope, sorry guys, no Destroy the Godmodder relevant stuff here...
At least, not yet.
Life just showing you no mercy, then?
GODDAMN IT
STUPID GENDERFLIP VIRUS